Nigel Farage gets a warm welcome in Edinburgh...

ganglesprocket's picture

This story is just sensational, there is literally nothing about it which falls short of brilliant. Makes me proud to be Scottish!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/16/nigel-farage-edinburgh-pr...

EDIT

Hurrah! There's footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMZ55ZJHllQ

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Still undecided myself, but I can't help thinking that Farage and the Dave'n'George show are the best adverts for independence there are.

Indeed. Truth to power, as they say.

While I don't think that shouting people down is any substitute for debate, this peaceful, non-violent demonstration was an effective counter-stunt to UKIP's stunt. A political Patriot missile to the incoming UKIP Scud, if you will.

Sometimes an expression of popular revulsion is just what's needed.

...and there is literally no situation in which the word 'bawbag' isn't welcome.

And indeed Jolean!

I've just read through this whole thread. I agree with many of your points and I think others are just blinded by party loyalty. I'm moving on down the page right now!

..is that just brilliant. And about 50 times better than any episode of Question Time? :)

"Is this a kind of anti-English thing?"

No. Its an anti racist thing. I hope that Scotland remains part of the UK just for this kind of attitude. Admirable stuff.

Is this the case? Around 75%-80% of the UK population have concerns about our membership of the EU - are they 'racist' to have such concerns.

calling Farage out as a racist were being quite specific in who they meant. Widening the comment to euro sceptics is an odd thing to do. I'm not sure why you think that's what was meant.

being very clear. Are you now accusing Farage alone of being racist? I'm aware that this is currently the most heinous crime known to man, but isn't he married to a German woman? If the British people, on the whole, are extremely uncomfortable with large-scale immigration, particularly of those who do not share our cultural values - are they then racist?

The people barracking Farage were calling him racist. I think they have a point. Nothing more or less than that.

I don't understand why you keep trying to extrapolate what I said beyond that.

you think they have a point? Is anyone who expresses any concern whatsoever about immigration now automatically smeared as racist?

But when a party is opposing immigration "particularly of those who do not share our cultural values" you can see how we're into emotive territory.

UKIP raise some entirely valid points about the downsides of immigration. They also have a tendency to blame immigration (and therefore immigrants) for more of our problems than seems fair.

We need to find the language with which to have a sensible debate about immigration. That way we can address the (entirely justifiable) concerns of UKIP voters, while also making it harder for Farage and his cohorts to spread misinformation and exploit people's fears and prejudices.

The notoriously tolerant, liberal Dutch have encountered major difficulties in coping with an influx of Muslims who, amongst other delights, advocate the death penalty for gays and apostates and who believe women should be treated as second class citizens. There is a serious issue here as to how the tolerant are to deal with the intolerant.

That the left have let Islamic extremism off far too lightly, and have bent over backwards to avoid condemning some of the stuff you mention below (the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali being a classic example). Forced marriage, honour killings, female genital mutilation - these are all things we should be opposing tooth and nail, not opportunities to demonstrate our tolerance.

However, I don't believe that UKIP's priority is opposing any of the above - if they find themselves doing so it seems more by happy coincidence than by design. And I think that they're perfectly prepared to tar all, or great swathes of, the immigrant population with the same brush. And that's both emotive and dangerous.

of UKIP, but I believe it is vital that issues surrounding immigration and EU membership can be discussed by the electorate without accusations of racism being knee-jerkedly tossed about.

It's the failure to do so that has allowed Farage to prosper.

It's not automatically racist to be concerned about immigration. But both sides need to choose their words carefully, as (rightly or wrongly) this is an area where it's extremely easy to misunderstand/offend.

The GLW is Dutch and she finds the Brits to be a lot more tolerant and liberal than her countrymen/women, a big reason for her moving here. I've heard the same from other Dutch people resident here.
The large cities are refuges for tolerant liberals because they are not tolerated elsewhere. Not much room for dissenting voices or individuality in the hinterlands.

The Dutch have long prided themselves on this supposed 'tolerance'. It's no surprise to discover that non-metropolitans may haold differing views. After all, is that not the case with our very own opinion-formers here?

The smaller the place, the more likely people are going to take an interest (or poke their noses) in what you do. In Holland, it's more peonounced than here. It's good and bad - there is more of a sense of community, which is great for getting things done. The downside is that it can be opressive, with people being ostracised if they don't toe the line.

I live in rural Northumberland. People are amazingly relaxed about just about everything. Certainly about most of the things you get cross about (and me I suppose)

published this in its manifesto:

"Our traditional values have been undermined. Children are taught to be ashamed of our past. Multiculturalism has split our society. Political correctness is stifling free speech”,

Their “Pocket Guide to Immigration” promises to “end support for multiculturalism and promote one, common British culture”. The pocket guide has now been withdrawn. Farage was in charge of UKIP when these things were published.

That is enough for me to not like him.

And I have not once said that people concerned with immigration levels are racist. They may be. They may not be.

You can oppose multiculturalism without being racist.

It depends on your reason for opposing it I suppose. Which is always going to be a judgement call on how much you trust the person opposing it to be telling the truth on why they oppose it. I'm happy to make my own decision on what I think of Farage's reasons.

until proven innocent, then? You must be very proud of yourself that you possess such finely tuned antennae. Which aspects of our vibrant, monocultural ghettoes are you currently celebrating - genital mutilation, 'honour' killings (otherwise known as murdering a family member), forced marriages, grooming and pimping of white girls by gangs, an expressed desire to kill gays and apostates?

"Guilty until proven innocent" indeed.
Everyone, including you Ian, makes snap judgements on whether we like/dislike trust/distrust the people and organizations we encounter on a day-to-day basis. It's a necessary self-protection mechanism.
The only place where "innocent until proven guilty" actually applies at all times in the real world is in a court of law where it is a necessary artificial construct.
In all other interactions, the onus most definitely -is- on the other to demonstrate their good intentions at some point. We only give very limited benefit of doubt to those we don't know.

As for the rest of your rant, I'm going to ascribe it to an attack of bad temper and hope you think better of it when you cool down.

Just a recitation of some of the less welcome 'cultural imports'. You're attempting, as usual, to close down discussion of a topic, i.e.e 'multiculturalism', by automatically concluding that anyone who raises this topic is instantly suspect.

I'm just expressing my personal dislike of the way you express your prejudices in this discussion.
And you weren't just reciting 'some of the less welcome cultural imports', you were implying support for those unwelcome practices among your detractors.
I am fully in support of multiculturalism. I think it's essential if our society is not to stagnate.
Just as long as all of the cultures involved are practising it.

Such a cuddly, non-judgemental word.

Everybody does it.

Use of that word implies that I'd formed these opinions without knowledge of the facts or because of an irrational hatred or suspicion. The facts as regards these 'cultural practices' are as I've stated and my distaste for these is all too rational.

You are excelling yourself today in your assumptions about me and what I like. Could you let me know what I would like for my tea?

tikka masala, gefilte fish and a halal burger. That should cover all bases.

Sausages and scrambled eggs. And a beer.

UKIP-style fare. Did you have a dinner date with Nigel?

but our non smoking house put him off. That and my extensive world music collection*

* not true. I don't have one. And I have no idea of Nige's views on this subject.

If you don't have multiculturalism you must have a mono-culture? Whose? My glw's Scottish one? My Yorkshire culture? One of northern Ireland's two? Welsh culture? London? Surrey? (I'd quite like Iain m banks' culture). These are not the same thing - they have different values and histories (and religions though all are Christian).

And if we pick one, why are we choosing that one over another? Is it a considered judgement, or just habit?

I really don't think Farage is a racist at all. But his party is to put it mildly pretty ramshackle at present and there are some rum characters getting in as candidates. As/when they build up a proper organisation they'll need to sort that out or it will ruin them - as others say further down the page this could be the end of his free ride. I think the press have enjoyed using UKIP as a stick with which to beat the Tories, but they'll get the same monstering as everyone else now.

Students shouting 'scum! scum! scum!' at a visiting politician. Yes, that will learn him.

As Lando has pointed out, shouting people down shouldn't be a substitute for debate. But sadly, for some folk, it is exactly that. It is their way to avoid listening to the arguments of people they don't agree with.

When we give our blessing to this tactic in certain 'approved' cases, we consent to something that is, in essence, ugly and brutal and profoundly undemocratic.

Garage and UKIP are being given a surprisingly soft ride right now, so any indication that the country is not universally flocking to line up behind them is a welcome one, because you wouldn't really know it from what the mainstream outlets are presenting to us.

Bad tempered open public debate with a lot of shouting is precisely what you were getting nostalgic over in the Thatcher threads - and rightly so. This is what it looks like.

We've had several centuries of this, and about 20 years of pampered corrupt arseholes being ferried around by minders and SPADs to tame media outlets. I know which I prefer.

Don't agree with shouting down as a legitimate political tactic. Best defence against Farage and his friends is to hear more of what they actually stand for from their own lips. This just plays into his "little everyman against the big bad system" guff.

is about as childish and moronic as sticking one's fingers in one's ears. Only surpassed by the repeated demands from the right-ons to ban speakers whose views they disagree with.

...as featured on a daily basis in the Mother of Parliaments. On both sides. When they can be arsed to turn up.

Am I right on? Goodness me, I don't know. But I don't want Nigel Vagina to be banned. The more he opens his mouth the better as far as I'm concerned.

The idiotic behaviour often displayed by MPs has led to most people holding Parliament in contempt. I have no problem with exchanges of views, however robust they may be, but detest others views being howled down purely because they do not accord with some absolutist view of the metropolitan liberal-left. Also, Parliament has a Speaker who keeps the place in order to allow points to be made.
Right on? You certainly appear to be.

you'd never catch any of the right wing engaging in such deplorable behaviour.

Metropolitan liberal-left. What does that actually mean though?

Since they (we) clearly hold all the political power and exercise the cultural whip hand - apparently

Don't they (we) understand that badly organised right wing publicity stunts are a sacred part of our glorious (unwritten) constitution?

A Large Portion of Upness.

I'll be at any others that I become aware of though.

I think this party is very dangerous. The coming year or two will be as much a game changer as was '45 and '79. I don't like the distrust and/or dislike of others that just reeks out of UKIP. Whether they say the words or not, most everyone who votes for them thinks that they are voting for a party that will stand up for white English people.

We must challenge this lot who are moving us to the right during an economic downturn. Way too dangerous to be a joke.

funny though.

Farage speaks the truth. Even if it doesn't chime with your cosy little right-on ideas of a socialist consensus paradise.

The European project is just socialism by another name. A fucking disaster. Thatch (god bless her) and Farage see (saw) it for what it is.

I know that the consensus on here is to mock and scorn those on the right, to the extent that it is considered completely normal to describe someone as as a "tory" as a fair reason to hate someone.

80% of this site may not agree with me. I would hope though that they would not casually assume that everyone agreed with them.

But I think What happened to Farage in Edinburgh is shameful.

A few contradictions in you comments above:
If Thatcher thought the EU was "socialist" why did she do so much to tie the UK to it more closely? Perhaps she, like eg Angela Merkel, didn't actually see it as 'socialist' at all? It's true that Christian Democrats tend to have more of a social conscience than Tories but, hey, the clues in the name.

I'm not sure that I find Farage's 'truth' that we should be funding homeopathy on the NHS to be particularly convincing. I prefer 'truth' to have, well, some sort of basis in evidence - rather than 'Look at me, I'm in a *pub*!'

Which brings me to the bold assertions in your penultimate paragraph. In as much as there is a political consensus here, it is to mock and scorn *all* politicians. I have never seen any sign that anyone here was hated simply because of being a Tory. Nor, I suspect, is anyone under the illusion that no-one agrees with Farage; clearly UKIP are attracting support, including a disproportionate amount of the dighted.

"I have never seen any sign that anyone here was hated simply because of being a Tory"

Once again Lando, your comedic genius has brightened up my morning.

But the only way you can pick and choose that is to go to a forum where you know everyone is going to agree with you. Boring as hell! I've said to Vim a few times not to take it personally. Though clearly Ian is needling me personally all the time and I have to tell you confidentially, its upsetting me more than somewhat :-)

I don't really mind the 'shouty-name-calling' thing FG, I'd just rather be clear about what it usually means.

I'm sure most of us would agree that the reason we hang around here is that it is possible to disagree with folk in an adult and civilised fashion. The fact that there are one or two numpties doesn't bother me at all.

Though I do have numptyish tendencies!

However, it is also my sincerely held opinion.

out mikethep on 'The biter bit' where he bravely admits to being an 'afterword-tory-hater'. All top banter, obviously.

...to reach for the irony toolkit. As you well know Ian, I was responding to a particularly in-your-face bit of lefty-baiting by Vim.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't 'hate' 'Tories' on this site, I'm not soggy, I'm not even particularly lefty. I was telling the truth about not being arsed to shave more than once a week. Gosh, people are complicated, aren't they.

I have a sense of humour. So do you, obviously.

There's not enough of us about. And a lefty.

Thatcher, like all major politicians at the time and most of the electorate, backed the idea of a free trade bloc. The increase in the powers of the EU and the (inevitable) fiasco of the Eurozone have resulted in the majority of the electorate in most EU countries becoming extremely dissatisfied with the current operations of the EU.
'Social conscience' - flaunting the magnaminity of your positions as usual, without contemplating that your policies actually impoverish the population. Tel us more about the great successes Monsieur Hollande's policies are currently achieving.
As regards homeopathy - isn't this quackery already being funded within the NHS and hasn't it been the recipient of funding for some time?

Homeopathy: scandalously, there is some taxpayers money spent on homeopathy. There are moves to end it though and here is the UKIP response:
"UKIP rejects the recent House of Commons report on homeopathy as an unbalanced and short-sighted dismissal of a branch of medicine that last year treated 54,000 people on the NHS. UKIP endorses the remarks of the Chief Executive of the British Homeopathic Association who pointed out that "the [select committee] inquiry was too narrow in its remit, there is plenty of evidence to support homeopathy, with 100 randomised controlled trials, and many more on outcome measures, which reflect how patients say they feel." UKIP believes that homeopathy has much to offer patients and notes that in a recent survey carried out at England's NHS homeopathic hospitals, some 70 per cent of patients said they felt some improvement after undergoing treatment. UKIP will continue to support homeopathy through the NHS."

They know their core support. To get beyond it, they'll need to ditch stuff like the above. And then the wheels will come off.

Thatcher on Europe? This was the woman who - to her lasting credit - signed us up to the Single European Act, the wellspring of greater integration. Of course, it was in keeping with the Treaty of Rome, committing us to 'ever closer union'.

And M. Hollande? Rather too early to say how he will do, though he is not, as far as I know, a Christian Democrat.

Most of them worked for Goldman Sachs. Those cowering hand wringing loser leftie right on snivelling bankers with their knit-your-own yoghurt. Contemptible isn't it.

No problem whatsoever with your politics, I enjoy the discussion, you Raymond and many others are sincere and funny.

What Farage ought to do is call a public meeting and see if he gets any support - if he can actually dominate a room, arguing his case, up on his hind legs. Thats what previous generations of politicians did.

Fake outrage at a publicity stunt being shouted down is absolutely preposterous. He might as well have been selling yoghurt or handing out Express lottery tickets. IT was PR not politics. They aren't the same and in other circumstances you'd agree

But I really don't see how this helps.

Can't we get someone to, y'know, out debate him? There's surely enough ammunition to do so.

It seems a bit sad if we're reduced to cheering as students shout "balls" at him.

Obviously, the report is funny.

It was a publicity stunt of a type that is surely past its sell-by date :"Look at me! I'm in a pub! What a card I am, eh? "

On this occasion, Farage's 'Hail fellow, well met' *act* was blown out of the water by another stunt, revealing the spluttering buffoon behind the curtain. For that stripping away of spin, we should all be grateful.

I meant that you don't defeat a man like Farage by patronising him, jeering him or trying to silence him.

You beat him by exposing his ideas and policies to daylight. I'll cheer when that happens.

Shouting "balls" at one another gets us nowhere.

Which was done pretty effectively. I'm all for debate too - but debate what? Farage is a creature composed entirely of spin and image.

But I would be stunned if today's events changed anyone's mind re: Farage.

And if the best way to destroy spin is to shout at people en masse then god help us all.

Trashing a public meeting would be one thing. Howling down some photo opportunities with tame journalists and local radio is entirely another

to do both, of course (though possibly not at exactly the same time). Then everybody wins :)

Yes, let's attempt to 'euphemise' this thuggish behaviour and thus avoid the real issue of Labour activists, yet again, screaming abuse at those who don't subscribe to their narrow viewpoint.

Yes, no doubt that they were all Labour activists, under direct instructions from Johann Lamont and Ed Miliband. Imagine my diaspointment when I opened my sealed orders too late to join in.

have a laugh at that one!

seems to think they were Nationalists according to his twitter feed.

It is a funny old world in Scottish politics at the mo.

Yes, let's attempt to 'euphemise' this thuggish behaviour and thus avoid the real issue of SNP activists, yet again, screaming abuse at those who don't subscribe to their narrow viewpoint.

If only there was a nationalist supporter around who could offer us their opinion on this.

were that these were Labour Party activists from Edinburgh Uni. If Nats were involved, they should be ashamed of themselves. 'Rentamob'; abusing others and constant calls for the banning of 'fascist' speakers are hallmarks of the Toytown Trots. As regards the consensus on this site being dislike of 'all ' politicians, that's about as credible as a Campbell dossier. I'd struggle to name one Labour politician from Foot to Blair that you haven't defended, if not praised, in the past.

A conspiracy!!!

of dunces, more like.

However that hardly makes for a consensus, does it?

It means that your imagined 'consensus' does not exist.

Does your conspiracy, man

you'll find that you introduced the notion of 'conspiracy', not me. Too many Brown ales leading to befuddlement?

Just teasing (Lager anyway)

Isn't it *your* imagined consensus?

'Which brings me to the bold assertions in your penultimate paragraph. In as much as there is a political consensus here, it is to mock and scorn *all* politicians. I have never seen any sign that anyone here was hated simply because of being a Tory.'
Your comment on 16th May.

Yes, I think that exists. My own shameless defence of Labour hacks is a partial exception to it, obviously.

This demo was organised by Radical Independence. They have admitted responsibility, if you like. They undoubtedly believe in a normalised, or 'independent' Scotland. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest they are members or supporters of the SNP.

What Scottish Labour (and your good self, I believe) is saying is that everyone who supports a normal Scotland is an SNP supporter. That game changed when Salmond did his bit and got us the indyref. The SNP no longer dominates in the debate about the future of a normal nation called Scotland. (And rather than go down your road of quoting dates to prove that Scotland isn't really a nation at all, I'd just say that if it feels like a nation then it is a nation).

The aspiration to live in a totally normal nation/state is shared now by the SNP, Greens, SSP, Respect, CP, a huge amount of trade unionists and basically just about everybody of the left that isn't a LP member. And no doubt others from across the spectrum. Me - I fully support Scottish Labour for Independence.

FACK ORF! Splitters.

IT wasn't a debate. It was a PR stunt. It got sabotaged. It happens all the time and serve any politician who expects people to go along with it damn right. I loathe that sort of thing. Why not hold a meeting? And it was nationalists not grey humourless indie losers clutching their labour party cards and Joy Division albums

What's shameful is the easy ride him and his party get from the media. If it takes some angry people from Edinburgh (who lest we forget recently barracked Iain Duncan Smith) to do this then good. Someone should.

A party with BNP links
With frankly fucking looney tunes ideas (homeopathy)
That doesn't have as much support as the Green Party yet gets oodles more TV time and news reporting.

Yeah, I'm OK with him getting a barracking. It's politics; it's meant to be about the people.

"That doesn't have as much support as the Green Party yet gets oodles more TV time and news reporting".

The latest YouGov poll (two days old) on voter intentions recorded the following: Labour 39%, Conservative 30%, UKIP 16%, LibDems 9%. The UKIP 'vote' has gone up since the local elections.

I can't stand UKIP and don't want them elected but they aren't fringe nutters, they have a legitimate point of view (which I disagree with) and they aren't a threat to the body politic. They've spotted in a way the mainstream parties haven't that power isn't amout smoozing the City and allocating massive PFI contracts, its about governing the country with leadership and earning consent. The foul PR lightweights we have in charge won't/don't understand.

What UKIP are bad at is operating like a proper political party - and thats what happened yesterday - SNP and Labour 'fixers' would never have allowed a vulnerable PR stunt like that to go ahead. It was amatuerish but it wasn't a violent punchup.

Shouting down a PR stunt is a demo, completely legitimate, its not like smashing up a political meeting with bully boys, and there is far too much harumphing about the whole comic episode.

The Green Party actually has an MP.

And when I look at this, my read is that they're short on Councillors too.(I'm not being snarky when I ask if I'm misreading that)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_make-up_of_local_councils_in_the_...

Farage himself in the 2010 election came third. he was running against John Bercow, so therefore didn't have to worry about the Lib Dems or others. Third. Second place was an ex Tory MEP who ran with a dolphin.

Any of them, the people working in politics should have to face down things like this. They want to take mine and your money and run things (and they're asking for a pay rise currently, in this climate). Fine, if you want to be in politics and you're working for me I want people with balls, who aren't fazed by somebody shouting at them, who can cope without a speechwriter, spin doctor, tame audience. I want somebody who has the nerve to say 'here I am, what have you got?!'

Because frankly if our MPs don't have that fire I don't want them.

He said.

Herr Farage just hung on on Radio Scotland, telephone interview about the protest yesterday... it seems Le F didn't like his views being challenged. And he invoked Godwin's Law (Scottish Nationalists are like Nazis etc)

sorry, faragefingers

But the interviewer didn't challenge, or even discuss, his "views". That's the whole point and the reason Farage got the hump. The interviewer challenged the right of a UK national party to campaign in a part of the UK. It was quite shockingly anti-democratic. "UKIP isn't part of Scottish political debate in any meaningful way." Well sorry matey but - whatever you may think of them - if they are fielding candidates in elections they are, by definition, "part of Scottish political debate". They are entitled to be: it's called democracy. And as for the interviewers's blatant hostility - isn't the BBC supposed to be impartial?

has ever retained their deposit in a Scottish election. That could be interpreted as "UKIP isn't part of Scottish political debate in any meaningful way."

They were losing deposits in England a few years ago. It's a party that has risen very steadily all over the UK in the few years. They have every right to try and do the same in Scotland and there's every possibility that they might. People's votes aren't set in stone. That's why you have campaigns. And elections. It's not up the BBC to decide who is entitled to put up candidates and campaign in their region.

not the future. He has the opportunity to put a coherent and persuasive argument as he is being given airtime about how he will change that. But not once retaining a deposit puts them on the fringe in Scotland. And I would see that question as fair of any fringe party.

It's about campaigning for future elections in which - even in Scotland - UKIP have eevry right to campaign anywhere they wish to in the UK. Scotland is not yet a separate country.

UKIP would be a legitimate party. That's not under dispute, by anyone at all. Despite the desperate attempts of the UKIP spin machine to erect a straw man to that effect. Do people really fall for this - to introduce a new variant - bawbaggery?

Get a far more aggressive rodgering on an almost daily basis on the Today programme. Farage called the SNP supporters fascists on air and said that they (all SNP supporters?) hate the English. The man is a complete bell-end.

He challenged Farage - as all politicians are challenged - and pointed out that only 2 respondents out of 1000+ in the last Scottish Mori poll were UKIP supporters. Farage then took the hump. They don't like it up 'em, sir.

is to elicit something newsworthy from an interview in the limited time frame a news programme affords.
Making a provocative remark in order to get a response can be an effective way to do that when dealing with polished political operators, trained to reveal nothing at all in interviews.
The BBC's journos, for the most part, do it pretty even-handedly to all parties.
If something an interviewee proposes is controversial and you don't challenge their position, then you're giving them a free ride.

I just like the word bawbag in ANY context.

I don't think Nigel F will be visiting Scotland any time soon whether you think yesterday was a disgrace or amusing. Disastrous interview here (a Guido Fawkes blog link): http://order-order.com/

This will play well to some people. Scotland is seen as a rather leftie place (being solid Labour and trade union and all that, plus well..Scottish). For the constituency of voters Farage is aiming for, this presses all the right buttons. Many of us (whether identifying ourselves as being on left or right) might think him a bit of an oaf, but we don't get all the votes.

He is a total pissweasel, however.

You've obviously not met my in-laws

but I think he is starting to leave the gun in the holster and shoot himself in the foot.

As he gets more media cover and as people now take him seriously, his opinions will get attacked more. He will struggle to back up some of his opinions with facts and I think the lack of political machinery at his disposal will be his other undoing.

This will be an interesting year or two.

The stunt by Farage was designed to drum up support in Scotland was it?

Therefore a cupid stunt.

To get into the government all Nigel has to do is get his party, and we have to acknowledge it is very much a one-man band here, is get them to third position and form a coalition with the Conservatives. I voted for a Conservative candidate in the last election, a person I knew and respected, and not the party. The thought of UKIP getting anywhere near government will make me vote tactically next time.

But - regarding rowdy crodws & people getting a rough ride - Prescott. Egg. Discuss. I think its healthy, if Farage has anything about him he'll be back

Suspect many of the folk across the web who are all butthurt about this incident would've been among those cheering when he got egged. It's purely partisan, all this outrage. (Sorry: it can't be. Only the left are tribal. My bad.)

Geese and ganders. I'm all in favour of politicians' publicity stunts having clogs thrown in the gears. It's not about stifling debate, and it's disingenuous for the right to suggest that it is, although I can see why it would suit them to say that.

Seeing him turn around and instinctively lamp the bloke who'd done it was altogether more satisfying. And made like like Prescott just a little bit more. Juvenile of me? Deffo, but I never said I was mature.

The entire Prescott episode was aces. The egging itself would've been perfect without the ENTIRELY perfect reaction. I love that his instinctive reaction was just, "Fook it, lamp 'im!"

But punching an egg throwing twat managed it.

I don't know why Farage didn't simply use his superior physical prowess to bludgeon his way through the mob.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2325414/Men-physically-strong-...

Love the second picture caption: "Men with less upper body strength are more likely to support the welfare state - like Labour leader Ed Miliband."

I'm surprised Farage creates such outrage. I've always assumed UKIP were just a party for staid little-Englanders. They're hardly the NF. What part of their manifesto provokes such a rabid reaction?

PS I agree with JoLean that the word bawbag is hilarious in any context.

Their "mandatory red trousers and Google Glasses" policy is provocative, to say the least.

I've mixed feelings on the Fargy-Bargy. On the one hand, I admire the Jarvis-waving-arse-at-Michael-Jackson style irreverence, but to use the words scum and fascist to describe someone who has perfectly legitimate concerns about the EU is just wrong.

If they'd have left it at 'Bawbag' it would have been perfect. Sadly, it turned ugly and should go down as an own goal for left-wing nationalism.

This is the point where the cliches we're used to are all turning back in on themselves and belonging useless. SNP - left wing?

I don't think there's much debate about the fact that the SNP are, and have been for many years, a left of centre party.

Edit: it should be pointed out that this wasn't an SNP protest, but rather a Judean Popular Front style bunch called Campaign for Radical Independence or some such.

The SNP are inherently right-wing because nationalism is inherently so: *they* are different;*we* are not like *them*.

As someone once remarked of leading nationalist Ferguson Ewing MSP, any independent Scotland run by him would be one in which the trains ran on time.

However, that noted SNP supporter and leftist Mr ianess may be along shortly to defend his party's socialist credentials.

have, clearly, many left wing policies. Your 'analysis' of 'nationalism' is the usual pathetic attempt to link all nationalist movements with Hitler. Given the large number of 'tankies' infesting Labour in Scotland, any attempts to smear moderates like Fergus Ewing are met with disbelieving scorn. Wasn't it the moronic Helen Liddle who was referred to as 'Stalin's granny'? Also, as regards extremists, a clown like John Reid would proudly proclaim his past as a Communist, though I'm sure he's toned down the rhetoric in the many boardrooms he now occupies.
As regards my views - I see myself as a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. I have stated many times that I have never voted for the Conservatives, nor any party to the Right of them.

Sinn Féin ('ourselves', or 'we ourselves') be described as right-wing. Perhaps they should be.

See also Islamism ('nationalism' in all but name). Again, never referred to as right-wing.

As others have highlighted, it's strange that groups who are virulently misogynistic, homophobic and intolerant of others of faith or no faith are seen as somehow 'progressive' while innocuous organisations such as the SNP and UKIP can be casually branded fascist, racist etc.

Islamo-fscism is common currency as a term now, and I know from many years working in Northern Ireland that Sinn Fein are very often called fascists. The right/left terminology is far less descriptive than it used to be though - I won't jump on that hobbyhorse again but I'e bored you and others with it in the past

I cannot conceive of Islamism as anything other than deeply reactionary and it had never occurred to me that anyone saw it differently.

Sinn Fein have certainly had a free pass from some parts of the left. I've never got it myself - I've yet to see anything positive come from the actions of gangsters and thugs, anywhere, anytime.

I certainly don't put the SNP in the same category as either of those two. As I've possibly said before, nationalism exists on a spectrum ranging from the outright evil (see above) to the merely sad and pathetic. Say what you like about the SNP but they are firmly on the 'sad and pathetic' end of the nationalist spectrum.

I have moved around 10 people from either 'No' or 'Don't Know' to 'Yes'. The vast majority of people that I know who are now voting 'Yes' have voted Labour at some point in their lives. They are sick of what Labour became after the death of John Smith. They would have Donald Dewar back in Scotland in an instant. But they hate most everything about Tony Blair and see him as wasting the best opportunity of our generation to lead a party that had the spirit of the post war government about it. Brown was never the man for the job and we all knew it, bar him.

But more than that, I'm speaking about people who have seen the actions of Labour in local government for generations. Monklands Council and the scandalous actions there (during the time of the Monklands MP John Smith, let us remember). West Dumbartonshire under Andy White, the awful awful attitudes and failings of Glasgow Labour councillors. And we've had enough.

And we think we can do better away from the dead hand of Westminster and the failed state that is the United Kingdom. We think that we can inspire fellow socialists in England and Wales (I'm not touching Northern Ireland!) to see that there is an alternative to the ideology that the UK has followed since 1979.

We may be sad and pathetic. We may meet as fellows of the left post normalisation. What we won't do right now is just hold out noses and trust the Labour Party one more time.

I wish we Englanders had an escape option.

it's called UKIP!

Blimey. I get that you don't like Scotland being in the UK, but it's hardly Somalia.

In the FIFA rankings?

Labour just don't get it. They thought they could run a devolved Scotland as a fiefdom and cannae get their heads around the SNP being more popular than they are.

If Labour wanted a majority in the Scottish Parliament, all they needed to do was to use their Westminster majority to deliver a Scottish Parliament based on FPTP. They chose not to do so, because there was a belief in a different way of dong things - an unmatched piece of party political altruism. Sadly a statistical quirk gave a party with <50% of the vote a majority. I'd have to say that it hasn't worked.

about Labour's 'altruism' was rightly laughed out of court the last time you repeated this fantasy.

I'm not so sure about that. It was a brave move but the Constitutional Convention demanded nothing less.

And proceeded by consensus. At the time, in a flush of idealism, I thought it was the shape of things to come.

On Scottish independence?. Seems like it.

wasn't it Farago who used "scum" and "fscist" to describe his detractors?

Etc

:-)

'This is Glasgow. We'll just set aboot ye'

prolly jist as weel he landed in that Embra :D

Here's a link to the full text of the interview where Farage threw his hissy fit:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/468497/20130517/nigel-farage-david-mil...

A perfectly reasonable line of questioning - challenging but certainly not Paxo-level - and Farage loses the plot. Hopefully this marks the end of his free pass. I, for one, want to hear more about his proposal to spend the NHS budget on magic water for cranks.

... how he plans to build prisons whilst cutting taxes.

Farage is a one note, single issue protester and an arsehole. He whines about David Cameron being mean about his party at every given opportunity. He moans when the press, legitimately, go through the online histories of candidates that he doesn't vet and find dodgy material. He's a classic "pretend to be be all hail fellow, well met" whilst actually being a fuckwit. His politics can be summed up as "it's all the fault of foreigners." He is a pathetic little man who has been over indulged by the right wing media, and the sooner Eddie Mair gets unleashed on him the better.

sir!

I bloody hope it wasn't SNP supporters involved in this stunt. It will be interesting to see how UKIP perform in the forthcoming Aberdeen Donside bye election which is, I think, their first real foray into Scottish politics (bit surprised to see Nige in Edinburgh when the actions up north).

just how much Scotland there is, north of Embra.

'Hard left activists' according to 'Sunday Politics', noting that they were chanting 'racist scum, go home'.

… on a profoundly serious issue such as students shouting "ner de ner" at a man who believes all the UK's economic problems can be solved by exporting Spitfires to Venus.
http://youtu.be/8zfvOs4CaBg

A major contribution to the debate, offering fresh and subtly-nuanced insights to the man's Weltschmerz.

But I can't help myself

Or sutin.

It's got "T-shirt", "wallpaper", "mouse-mat", "tattoo", "flag" written all over it, hasn't it?

Great sourcing/posting FG.

.

From today's Sunday Mirror

Ukip's Chris Pain, leader of the opposition at Lincs Council and the party’s East Midlands regional chairman, wrote: “Have you noticed that if you ­rearrange the letters in ‘illegal ­immigrants’, and add just a few more letters, it spells, ‘Go home you free-loading, benefit-grabbing, resource-sucking, baby-making, non-English-speaking ********* and take those other hairy-faced, sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-********, raghead ******** with you.’”

The full story is here.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-councillors-racist-rants-more-...

anti immigration though rather than racism*.

* It isn't though. It's racism.

All the swearwords I know are the wrong amount of *'s. UKIP wouldn't be using another language would they?

It's just larks, isn't it? I can't understand how anyone could call UKIP crypto-racists. They're not that cryptic.

Christ

That was enough to make me nearly choke on my halal burger

I have been fairly firmly in the 'no' camp.

However if the choice is actually between an independent Scotland in the EU, or staying in the UK but leaving the EU... Well, that's one painful choice but I think it might tip me over to 'yes'. Who knows where we'll be in a year though.

We live in interesting times.

On the same side. Honestly.

I would hope we'll be on the 'same side'!

Though the prospect of a UKIP/Tory coalition might just create a consensus. Who knows?

an independant Scotland inside the EU and England etc outside the EU would potentially be the most problematic scenario for an independant Scotland. Not impossible, but even trickier in the short term

FWIW, I don't have a view on what people in Scotland chose to do. It's up to them

this thread has been entertaining, educational, provocative and L out loud funny? And that it takes opposition for debate to work at all? No? Oh well ...

As he reckons it should be pronounced, for consistency's sake. This is rather good:

http://www.lukewright.co.uk/nigel-faridge

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